question

Dylan Hunt avatar image
Dylan Hunt asked

Expressing my opinion about PlayFab's lack of transparency

When we joined PlayFab, it was because PlayFab seemed more trustworthy, claimed cheaper rates than GameSparks, and had that indie feeling to it with growing features - at that time.

However, since I used PlayFab about a year ago, many things have happened, including growing limitations (that were not transparent until recently, but I accepted them), slowing down of features (including, still, the inability to do something common like delete stats instead of asking us to make a new title every time, rendering other modules useless such as leaderboards and prize boards), but I still stayed...

Then, when the time had come to upgrade my account out of the free tier, $299/mo MINIMUM appeared on my contract offered before this was changed on the website, with no indication in fine print or any other place that there was a $299/mo minimum (cached site), only to unexpectedly find out by a single line subtly printed in the middle of the contract. Despite pointing out the lack of transparency (with a dev response bravely admitting it, which was pretty cool at least), we were still not even offered the amount advertised. I'm not going to say the term for this, but you know what this is called.

Such practices have not only caused us to lose PlayFab's integrity and trust, but have also cost us 150+ hours of development time to port to GameSparks (free/no limitations as an indie dev).

I'm not salty because the new system has no limitations and spoils indie devs (+includes realtime services), but I do want to point out that what PlayFab did was wrong. I am happy to see that you have included the $299/mo min. on the site, but many devs (not just myself) have been implementing PlayFab for a long time now with $8/mo in mind:

That said, I really hope that you email your list with such an important update so they don't fall into the same situation as we have. That is my only hope.

This thread will probably be filtered out, but I hope PlayFab will do the right thing and do what they did not do before: Inform their users with transparency.

apis
10 |1200

Up to 2 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 512.0 KiB each and 1.0 MiB total.

1 Answer

·
brendan avatar image
brendan answered

You have my apologies for where we weren't clear - we're well aware that our documentation for some things has been lacking, and we're working on that. I'll specifically address each point as best I can:

> ...growing limitations (that were not transparent until recently, but I accepted them)...

From the beginning, we stated that we would have to apply reasonable limits to features. At the start of the company, it wasn't possible for us to have all the limits in place, so as we added actual monitoring and enforcement, we grandfathered in all live titles, so that no one would have a breaking issue. However, it's literally impossible for us to operate as a business if we simply allow all titles to have unlimited use of the service, so we have since reached out to developers with successful titles, to ask that they pay a reasonable rate for their usage. Our pricing is a best-effort, based upon our costs, and built in such a way as to make it as simple as possible. Some titles use more services or more API calls, and some use less. Our choice was between having extremely complex, usage-based pricing, and simple, MAU-based pricing. We chose the latter, but we continue to experiment with pricing models, to see if we can find something that will be preferable to different developer segments (while still allowing us to stay in business).

> slowing down of features (including the ability to do something like delete stats instead of asking us to make a new title every time

While we do want to provide the ability to delete statistics, we didn't design it in from the start, and so have been stalled on adding that. Since it's simple to create a new title and most developers did that when needed, this clearly hasn't been a high priority for us. But it is a pain point we're well aware of.

However, I do have to take exception to the phrasing of "slowing down of features". We've been exceedingly specific in our messaging concerning the fact that we cannot and will not promise delivery dates for things that aren't in active development. As a live service, it's simply not possible for us to determine when features will be delivered if they're not currently in process, as we have to make adjustments for live titles constantly.

You have my apologies for any features we've not delivered that you would like to have, but we do not promise things we can't guarantee we'll deliver. Anything else would be setting our customers up for failure.

> $299/mo appeared on my contract offered before this was changed on the website

So I know we've discussed this with you in one-on-one conversations, but since it's called out here, I'll go ahead and address it. We've had a monthly minimum on our Pro Tier contracts since they were first introduced. It's in the text of the contract, and no one is billed that monthly minimum unless they've signed the contract. I will absolutely agree that the site didn't list the monthly minimum, as it should have, but we have never billed anyone any charge that wasn't made explicitly clear ahead of time.

> This thread will probably be filtered out, but I hope PlayFab will do the right thing and do what they did not do before: Inform their users with transparency.

No, we're not in the business of trying to hide our mistakes - we're in the business of trying to do the best we can for our customers, and helping to make up for any mistakes we do make. You've already heard from me privately, and now publicly, that I personally regret the places where our communication has been less than perfect, and has caused you angst. We try to be as transparent as possible in all our communications, from features to pricing. But I'll be the first to admit that we're human, and we're bound to trip ourselves up from time to time.

Ultimately, our philosophy is this:

We want to provide a backend service for games that enables developers to have a broad range of functionality that enable rich features as inexpensively as possible.

We want to continually expand those capabilities, to give developers more tools to create new gameplay experiences and to achieve success.

Doing so has real-world costs that have to be accounted for, from running server to paying a staff of engineers to keep all those services running at a high level of availability, and continually expand on them. But by amortizing those costs across many titles, we make it less expensive for everyone (and save on the headaches of trying to hire people to run it all). But we do ask that developers pay their fair share for their usage, for cases where they want to hold us to a high standard of service. That's part of the point of the Pro Tier - that we provide a Service Level Agreement and one-on-one support via our ticketing system, so that professional developers can count on us exactly as if we were their own backend team.

Because we are.

13 comments
10 |1200

Up to 2 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 512.0 KiB each and 1.0 MiB total.

dgupta avatar image dgupta commented ·

What...I thought the same thing. We are so small and we will have to scrape by the $100 a month. An, since I'm the only programmer, switching is not an option. Wow, the one thing I loved about Playfab seems to be wrong :/

1 Like 1 ·
brendan avatar image brendan dgupta commented ·

Sorry, but can you clarify specifically what you're referring to? We have a free tier, which has zero costs, available to all hobbyists and first-time indies. There is not, and never has been, any cost in that tier. What we're discussing in this thread is specifically the costs for the pro tier, which you would have had to have a specific discussion with us concerning, and for which we would only be billing you if you signed a contract with us for it.

0 Likes 0 ·
dgupta avatar image dgupta brendan commented ·

Oh, so I don't need to upgrade to the indie tier to be able to continue using Playfab, as long as I dont use the scheduled tasks and such? Sorry, I might have misunderstood.

0 Likes 0 ·
Show more comments
Dylan Hunt avatar image Dylan Hunt commented ·

Thank you for the quick answers and not deleting the post:

My final thoughts are that yes: there are real-world costs, but dragging over a year to show them is something completely different, and even further different when a completely different cost was switched at contract-time.

If I said that our game has development/maintenance costs and I clicked "checkout" on my game and raised the price from $96/year to $3,588/year, how do you think people will react? No Man's Sky had a similar feeling: and that was $3,253 cheaper.

My game shows $9.99, requires them to go through a 1-year tutorial, then at checkout I charge $3,588, what would you expect reactions to be when I respond with, "We've had this cost the entire time, actually"?

What if Discord suddenly started charging $299/mo for users that have deep integration in it, already coding bots and such?

I could infinitely compare -- but I'm mostly responding to this quote

"we have never billed anyone any charge that wasn't made explicitly clear ahead of time."

You did not inform me there was a $299/mo minimum. I found this out via the contract and only the contract. How was this explicitly clear?

0 Likes 0 ·
brendan avatar image brendan Dylan Hunt commented ·

Again, all I can do is apologize for anywhere our communication wasn't explicit. Our pricing page has shown a variety of models, as we've adjusted over the years. But it's grossly unfair to compare our pricing page to a checkout experience. A more accurate comparison would be our limit upgrades pages. There, we show a specific price, you choose one, and sign up for it. In 100% of those cases, the price charged is what was shown on those pages.

Every single person who has expressed an interest in going into the pro tier has had a specific discussion with us on that topic. We then send out a contract, which has a section that very clearly shows all costs for the service - nothing is buried in any kind of legalese or other weasel words. I'm more than happy to show the sample contract to anyone who asks.

0 Likes 0 ·
Dylan Hunt avatar image Dylan Hunt brendan commented ·

(It's not about the words buried - it's about the real price being buried. I definitely did NOT expect to see that - I'm sure I'm not the only one)

0 Likes 0 ·
Show more comments
dgupta avatar image dgupta commented ·

I just checked Gamesparks. It seems like after the first 100,000 users it will cost 2 cents per monthly active user. That can add up to...a lot...if your game gains any significant traction. Playfab seems to keep it at a constant rate, which is actually pretty low in terms of what it provides. Also, I'm sorry Brendan. I didn't realize the free tier did not require payment at all. It took me off guard with the pricing change because it was a little unclear at first.

0 Likes 0 ·
brendan avatar image brendan dgupta commented ·

Actually, our prices reduce as you go to higher MAU levels. So, right now (Sept 2017), the cost is $8 per 1,000 MAU for the first 250K MAU, and then $7 for the next 250K MAU (and so on). We've got our UX designer working on making the pricing page clearer.

0 Likes 0 ·
Dylan Hunt avatar image Dylan Hunt dgupta commented ·

Let's say you have 200k MAU (which is a LOT for an indie game. This is not a total, it's per unique user).

GS = 100k MAU free + (100k leftover * .02 per MAU) = $2k/mo

PF = 200k MAU * .008 per MAU = $1600/mo.

So once you get to about 200k MAU, PF does save you money. However, it's about GETTING there that's the hard part. If you instantly have 200k users, then you're an AAA game lol. However, let's be realistic. Let's say you have even 150k MAU at launch (which is very unlikely for even an AA game).

GS = 100k MAU free + (50k leftover * .02 per MAU) = $1k/mo

PF = 150k MAU * .008 per MAU = $1.2k/mo

This math shows that you don't actually start saving money until you reach a few thousand over 150k MAU, which excludes any additional limitation unlocking fees. This is a LOT!! Let's say the first year you have under exactly 100k MAU (still WAY above average for indie games).

GS = 100k MAU = $0/mo

PF = 100k MAU * .008 per MAU = $800/mo * 12 mo = $9,600/year + limitation locking fees.

Conclusion: PF DOES save you money .. but only if you are as popular as AAA games. These prices are not for indie devs.

I'll take the extra $10k marketing budget per year.

src averages: https://steamspy.com/

0 Likes 0 ·
brendan avatar image brendan Dylan Hunt commented ·

To be clear, the pricing you've stated only applies if you're eligible for their free tier, which means having 3 or fewer team members.

Regardless we both have a free tier. We're both trying to offer a great backend service for games. We're both charging developers based upon usage, and I will absolutely state we both provide those services for equivalent prices. Finally, both services have a range of features. I do feel that PlayStream is a significant competitive advantage, but I'm biased, obviously.

The real difference is the fundamental philosophy of our architecture. You can read our whitepapers and theirs to validate your own opinions on this, but at the core, we've chosen to create a service where we do not provide direct access to data tables, but rather control the queries directly, so that titles don't have to worry about that aspect. GameSparks chose the opposite, providing direct access and a framework for that.

But that aside, given that you've already made it clear that you are moving your title to GameSparks, this is starting to feel like your intent is to promote their service here in our forums. If so, I would respectfully ask that you do so in your own blog.

0 Likes 0 ·
Dylan Hunt avatar image Dylan Hunt dgupta commented ·

(Banner Saga 2, for example, is between AA and AAA. They only had 7,000 people on in the past 2 weeks. Then WitchIt had only 12,000. for a sample of realistically expected MAU)

0 Likes 0 ·

Write an Answer

Hint: Notify or tag a user in this post by typing @username.

Up to 2 attachments (including images) can be used with a maximum of 512.0 KiB each and 1.0 MiB total.